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 Post subject: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SPAZ 2
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 7:09 am 
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Hi Everyone,

Sorry I have been meaning to post more. Richard is holding down the fort here well, and I still try to hit the Steam forums when I can. Here is a post that I made explaining the classes in SPAZ 2 as they stand now. The metagame has recently taken great strides forward and we are excited to tell a little bit more about it. I can't believe it has been 4 months since the trailer...

Anyhow here we go: Link to the Steam post: http://steamcommunity.com/app/252470/discussions/0/540743757315463742/

Don't worry, I will post the text here too :)

Blorfy


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 Post subject: Re: Look everyone! Blorfy actually posted something.
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 7:10 am 
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Hi Everyone,

Well, I have been working on the metagame pretty much solidly for the last month and now it is finally time to come up for air and talk a bit. I had been meaning to do this for a while but I was stuck in a mode thrashing between excitement and horror as the metagame AI slowly formed. Now they are all (mostly) happily working away so the needle is firmly pointing at excited and I will talk again :)

At a high level: SPAZ 2 is like a zombie movie. We have both been watching as much as we can of them (Thanks Netflix) and here's the idea. Zombie movies are about the people and how they face the apocalypse, not so much the zombies themselves. The zombies are really an environmental hazard that brings people into conflict. So for SPAZ 2 the real major interaction is Captain to Captain. That is why there are 200 of them and they each have a unique personality and face and can do everything you can do. There are rarely heroes in a zombie movie, just bands of survivors, who usually end up having to turn on each other. You are meant to get to know at least some of them, love them, hate them and feel bad or good when you see them as a zombie. So Captains are the Characters we get to know.

Next there are the Bandits. There are always faceless bandits it seems. The lawless groups who never really form a faction, make a lot of noise and generally are horrible people. Now don't get me wrong, some of the Captains are equally horrible, about 33% of them right now, but those guys have a plan at least. Bandits just take and take and really end up making it easier for the zombies in the long run. The Bandits of course end up becoming fodder first and swell the zombie ranks.

Then there are the zombies. Zombies really aren't that bad. They are instinctual and can even be used if you understand their behavior. We see the zombies in SPAZ 2 as part of the eco system. Not a part we really are happy is there, but it is the reality so how do we form an equilibrium with them or at least stay healthy and out of their way.

So now we have a total eco system on the Starmap with 3 classes. Captains, Bandits and Zombies.

I will write a post about each of these so this overview doesn't get too long as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Look everyone! Blorfy actually posted something.
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 7:10 am 
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Captains:

There are 200 Captains that can do everything you will be able to do. They are also not even aware of who the player is. Everyone is equal and has the same inputs and outputs to keep things fair.

The most important thing was to make these captains feel and act uniquely so we are giving each of them their own unique portrait. We commissioned a full 200 portraits which are just getting finished now. We have been receiving 25 a month.

Each captain also has A unique set of personality traits and hierarchy of needs. I will explain these. The personality traits are things live Bravery, or Altruism, or Bloodthirstyness, these influence how fast needs gain importance. Needs are things like safety, leveling up, rez, goons, scrap, battle, building starbases, exploration etc etc... The needs are hierarchical so that earlier needs trump later ones. Beyond that, if say there is a need like "Get Rez" a lot of who a Captain is comes down to how they fulfill that need. Will they trade, mine, or kill to get it. Well really they will try all of these, but which will they prefer.

Captains drive the advancement in the Galaxy and are a force for civilization, but this doesn't mean they are all "good guys" by any means. They are just organized and try to build a society or at least in the case of explorers and loners, know how to deal with society to get what they want.

The flow of the game is driven by the Captains. Aside from the low level starting parts that exist on galaxy creation, no part will ever come into existence that was not built by one of these 200 captains. Locations become mines which feed starbases, which attract traders, thieves and conquerers, this in turn attracts zombies. Everything will be an emergent event based on how these captains interact. In this living universe, it will be important not to be left behind, or at least to make strong friends. All flow will be based on the galaxy unfolding as it will and the Captains trying to Survive.

Captains have by far the most complex brains to write and each will behave differently, unlike zombies and bandits who are more environmental hazards that you can rely on to behave a certain way. Each Captain will try to preserve its life but in the end, some personalities will be ill suited to the apocalypse and they will end up merging with stronger factions, or becoming zombie food. Already certain personalities are doing quite well (The Altruistic Loners are quite successful right now) Once Faction building gets fleshed out and starbase building becomes more than just something I do to seed civilization, I expect more personalities to begin to shine.

Because of the Scope of the Captain brains, they are really the least functional right now. They are good at following their morality rules and exploring and evading trouble spots, but they still need to build starbases on their own and begin to trade and form dynamic factions. There is still a lot of work to do with these guys and once they are fully online expect another post about them (probably a video too)


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 Post subject: Re: Look everyone! Blorfy actually posted something.
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 7:11 am 
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Bandits:

The faceless jerks who mess everything up, make too much noise, and end up attracting the zombies, then getting eaten of course... making more zombies.

Though bandits do not have the same brains as the Captains, they do perform a fairly important role. They scavenge and scavenge well (but loudly). Now when I say loudly, I probably need to explain this being space and all. In SPAZ 2 there is sound. Call it scanning whatever, we have no name for it yet, but doing stuff makes noise and noise lets people and zombies know where you are, and people knowing where you are is usually not a good thing. Stealth will be pretty important on the Starmap. In combat let er rip full guns blazing though if you want since that is really really fun.

So in all horror and survival someone drops a vase and then the poop hits the fan. We wanted this too and the tension around stealth and staying quiet so "sound" is a major mechanic on the starmap and bandits, being bandits, make noise. Think of them as the ones in the loud trucks and motorcycles in the zombie movies enjoying the apocalypse far too much.

Where do bandits come from. The 200 captains are there when the galaxy generates, but the bandits are a little different. They are castoffs from battles. After battles there will be a scavenge field created, full of pods, scrap, parts rez and everything to make a just barely space-worthy vessel. These will all be parts from the ship that was destroyed in combat and some of its inventory (so no magic parts being created here either, it is recycling at its best!)

Anyhow, so these poor souls who are never picked up become bitter and make a fleet of their own with beer and hookers and off they go to cause trouble for everyone. (Note: if the scav node is being harvested they wont form, instead being rescued and become part of the not entirely voluntary labor force of whoever found them)

Now Bandits aren't all bad. They do keep the galaxy clean, so battle fields are not littered everywhere being fodder for the zombies growth. When the bandit fleet forms, it slooowly harvests whats left of the scav node and then starts flying around, evading zombies and looking for trouble, like a mobile treasure trove.

Bandits can also sort of work together. Weak bandit fleets will merge and if one bandit fleet is much more powerful than its neighbor, the weaker will be absorbed with all of its yummy new parts.

Another neat side effect of the bandits noise is that if they DO find a rez, goon or scrap node you are sure to "hear" them harvesting and can travel that direction to find it, instead of aimlessly wandering the fog looking for your own. Bandits are cowards if you are stronger than them and can be pushed aside easily if you are bigger. They are kind of like bullies, only strong in groups and if you stand up to them they run off.

The other great thing about bandits. They're slow and easy to find when you need to get a zombie off your tail. This will become important when I talk about zombies and travel speeds.


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 Post subject: Re: Look everyone! Blorfy actually posted something.
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 7:11 am 
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Zombies:

I can't explain exactly where zombies come from in SPAZ 2 since it is something you need to figure out as our main plot point. They are part of the ecosystem though and that is very important to us. They too fulfill a role and if you understand it, you can use it.

First off, I want to go into zombie behavior. It is really solid now and likely won't change too much after watching apocalypse after apocalypse unfold at 10X speed over the last few days. As with most zombie movies, it will all start with one unlucky person. Those 200 captains by the end of the game will be 200 zombies, pretty much guaranteed. The apocalypse 2.0 if SPAZ 2 unfolds quite innocently at first as well. It remains fairly contained for a long while but will eventually just spill out and be everywhere. All infection happens according to a set of rules as well and no one gets infected randomly. It is all captain choice based on greed or desperation or sometimes stupidity.

I also mentioned travel modes. This is probably important to understand first. In SPAZ 2, travel requires Rez. Just a little bit, since there is so little left. Without Rez you can move but it is just a crawl. So Rez is gas now. Think of a zombie movie here too. If you have a car with gas, safe, without gas dead unless very quiet and sneaky.

Flight modes:
Conserve - Quietly crawl around making very little noise. This is all you can do when out of rez and if someone is chasing you, you're caught.

Normal - Fly around using a little bit of Rez. You are faster than zombies that aren't flat out sprinting (boosting) after you. It makes a little noise but not too bad

Boost - Fly around with the engine wide open. Only someone with faster boost can catch you, and zombies can never boost that fast. You make an absolute ton of noise and burn rez like crazy. Burn all your rez and you are in conserve mode with an army of zombies on your tail. Not smart.

Notes: Bandits can't boost This means that they are prime decoys for zombies and cannot catch you if you have rez and are willing to boost.

Now I will explain FINALLY Zombie behavior and why it is scary will become maybe apparent. The why's of it all is plot related so I can't get into that.

Physically zombies are slightly slower and have poor vision. This means you will see them before they see you. BUT they have good hearing. Since flying around creates these sound bubbles, zombies will tend to hear you coming and want to investigate if not otherwise engaged having morning tea or somesuch.

Their #1 goal is to infect others and fight. If they SEE something to kill they will pick the weakest most wounded target and set upon it like a pack of wolves. When they see a target they also begin to scream making a huge sound bubble attracting any other zombies in the area from all directions, swarming the target. Zombies only Boost and Scream when they see an enemy. Their boost is slower than the Captains, BUT they can boost forever. So if a zombie sees you, you need to fly near a more tempting target or boost out of their sight range. If out of their sight range they return to normal mode but will still follow your sound until they can no longer hear it (go to crawl mode turn left and hope they pass by)

Their #2 goal is to eat. Think of this like when you see packs of zombies on body piles in the movies feasting away. The zombies have very limited memories and can even return to nearby locations. (Captains can remember everything they have ever seen, zombies get the last 3 locations only) Now if a zombie is feasting away (having tea as above) and they hear a loud engine noise, they don't care. This is important. An eating zombie is quite reliably safe if you just stay out of its vision range. This means that you can also attract them safely if you have enough rez to boost and stay ahead of them. Just get close to them, wiggle your juicy brain and then lead the herd where you want them. (cough enemy starbase cough) One important thing about their eating (harvesting) is that they are REALLY good at it. They are slow, but they can really pick a scrap field clean. If you are patient you can use this as well. They also eat (harvest) quietly so it is really easy to stumble upon huge hordes happily munching a huge scavenge field.

Goal #3 Well I'm not eating but what was that noise. If a zombie hears something, they will investigate at normal speed (this is slower than a captain's speed but faster than a bandits speed... poor noisy slow bandits) At normal speed zombies make about the same noise as anyone else and you can usually hear them coming.

Goal #4 Shamble and moan. If the zombies have nothing to kill, eat or investigate, they go into conserve mode and sloooowly shamble around making almost no noise just waiting for someone to run into them.

Note: every zombie in the game was once a captain. bandits and harvesting makes zombie fleets bigger, but captains make more zombies.

The zombies have one more trick up their sleeves but I will leave that for a future installment.


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 8:15 am 
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WOW... mega nice... I cant wait.. 700+ hours in the first spaz trying out EVERYTHING...


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 9:00 am 
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If one plays strategically, can't he slowly obliterate the zombies with maybe the help of allies (if you haven't scavenged them already)?


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 4:13 pm 
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Well obliterating them is impossible since they can regenerate. But crippling and containment is quite possible though, but just as in zombie lore this likely won't work long term as someone is going to end up getting themselves infected and rocking the boat. It is possible to exist in a post post apocalypse quite effectively if you plan well (keep your resources stocked keep away from bandits and other captains who want your stuff, make strong faction alliances too)


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 5:11 pm 
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about the "sound" stuff, i would take it more of radiation. i mean, the ship's propulsion, electronics and any tool you're using (this includes weapons) should produce some form of radiation. zombies would be adapted to that as they need it to detect their surroundings.

you could see it like that. also, nice ecosystem you're forming there. but i still wonder, how will resources develop? if its a recycling based economy wouldnt it get a point where Rez and parts become so scarce that practically there's nothing left to find?


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 5:22 pm 
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"Sound" is just placeholder term for it right now. It'll end up being warp fields or something when we contextualize it.


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 6:00 pm 
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So because of artificial stupidity, it'd be impossible to wipe out the Zombies, especially because of UNKNOWN PLOT DETAILS.

However, we can come fairly close, right? Like in SPAZ's Chapter 4?

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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sat 07 Jun, 2014 9:47 pm 
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I wouldn't label it as artificial stupidity. We're not giving the zombies story shields either. As Blorf pointed out, zombies can now reform themselves somewhat after death. We're telling you how the system works, but not the lore behind those changes. Not yet.


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 5:50 am 
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Now, Blorfy, you mentioned the player can do "everything" a ship Captain can do correct? (or did I read that wrong)

Everything, including the player being able to build Star Bases? Or, absorb other fleets of ships into their own?

As far as the "sound" idea goes, it would make more sense if you called it Electromagnetic Radiation (EMR) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation]; Light, Heat, Electricity, are all forms of EMR. So that would cover all the wavelengths of light, most electrical fields, most magnetic fields, thermal energy and the like. And, as EMR can exist in a vacuum, unlike sound, it would make sense... sort of. Though as EMR travels at the speed of light, it may be a bit difficult to explain how zombies quite a bit of distance away could detect it.


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 1:35 pm 
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omg so hyped :ugeek:

finally collected one thought: will everything be real time or will we have "jumps" again? because different movespeeds sounds like real time. on the other hand starmap sounds like jumps.

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Last edited by xpldngmn on Mon 09 Jun, 2014 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sun 08 Jun, 2014 8:43 pm 
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Palandus wrote:
Now, Blorfy, you mentioned the player can do "everything" a ship Captain can do correct? (or did I read that wrong)

Everything, including the player being able to build Star Bases? Or, absorb other fleets of ships into their own?

As far as the "sound" idea goes, it would make more sense if you called it Electromagnetic Radiation (EMR) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation]; Light, Heat, Electricity, are all forms of EMR. So that would cover all the wavelengths of light, most electrical fields, most magnetic fields, thermal energy and the like. And, as EMR can exist in a vacuum, unlike sound, it would make sense... sort of. Though as EMR travels at the speed of light, it may be a bit difficult to explain how zombies quite a bit of distance away could detect it.


Yup, the metagame is much deeper this time and the player is not the center of it. As I write the code, everything the player does actually passes through the Captain class. So the PlayerBrain as it is called is just a little tumor we affix to any Captain we want to pull the strings on. Now in the actual game you can't jump from captain to captain like that demon from Fallen but I can for now :)
This also ensures that anything I can do the AI Captains can do because in the end I need to pass through their interface to the rest of the game.

As for the "sound" that is just the term we use so you instantly get what we are talking about. We will contextualize it for the SPAZ universe when the time comes for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jun, 2014 11:47 am 
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Hmm. Sound like it would be more interesting to play around as a "Smart" silent Bandit. :P
Scavenging stuff or making a mess and then get away long before the zombies show up. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Wed 11 Jun, 2014 2:40 am 
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Meta-wise, I'm concerned that despite all the captain's personalities, each play-through of SPAZ 2 will be similar. Certain captains die off quickly and certain factions dominating the mid-game, then end-game the zombies kill everyone except(?) the human player. I hope you guys don't develop a complex system that ends up having simple outputs. I also hope multiple human play-styles are equally effective for survival in multiple game "eras."

I will miss the bounty hunters, Mac, the Admiral and Major, and Turbo-Defender. They're player-centric characters who specifically help or antagonize the player and their stories evolve as you play the game... and it seems your new system won't have these types of characters.


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Wed 11 Jun, 2014 4:03 pm 
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Those characters still exist. We're not talking about the story at all right now, just how the strategic layer works.


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jun, 2014 1:17 am 
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Will each... um captain have his own stats to keep track of that can be altered with interaction of the player?
Current Rez amount/flow (+/-), Current population/flow(+/-), current tech, and ships.

Will we be able to sell/buy rez/ships/tech/population and have it effect them? Will I be able sell a tech/ship/base to them and it will improve the NPC captains odds of survival?

It would be cool if there were ships/tech that you could only buy off of someone.

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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jun, 2014 4:06 pm 
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You won't be able to peddle your own starbase to someone, but you can trade anything else. AI caps will also trade with each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jun, 2014 10:07 pm 
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Really looking forward to spaz 2, this was a good read :D

I prefer Heat signature detection, the more your doing more heat you generate which in turn the more heat will becoming down on you.


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Fri 13 Jun, 2014 1:10 am 
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I agree with your thoughts on heat being a better way to portray activity rather then EM emissions. Heat/infrared travels vast distances and is generated via any action you take. EM emissions can be masked or scattered rather well enough to make detection difficult at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Mon 14 Jul, 2014 2:12 pm 
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The game seems awesomely well thought out, it will certainly be a pleasure to play.

As space is "infinite" (not in a game but bear with me), there should be equally infinite possibilities to explore. Will there be much exploration elements?

* Like a *scanner" to search for rez/other types of salvage (eg: makes noise but helps finding loot)
* Hidden sectors areas no-one has found where you can try to build your base there and try stay away from others.
* Unexplored sectors to look for (such as in previous point).
* Derelict bases, satellites, etc.
* Pirate traps... etc.

Thanks, keep up the good work!


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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sun 27 Jul, 2014 3:06 pm 
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As my question was asked in an edited post and overlooked I'll ask again:

Those "travel modes", are they a factor when doing jumps from system to system (or from planet to planet) or in the tactical part of the game? Will we still have jumps/starmap?

When will you finally get a channel at twitch and start streaming some development? :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Captains, Bandits, and Zombies oh My! (The Classes in SP
PostPosted: Sun 27 Jul, 2014 4:23 pm 
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There is no "Jumping" anymore. Ships use a REZ drive now, and physically travel across space. These flight modes don't apply to the combat end of the game, just the map.


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