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 Post subject: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Sun 25 Mar, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Hi All,

Just reading through all the posts here and on Steam, I am wondering if the general consensus is that the new BH content is too hard? Now, a lot of you probably play on insane by now which is meant to be hard, so I wouldn't want to count that, but just in general does their difficulty negatively impact the fun?

We made their ships really nasty because they could be avoided for the most part, but some people as we have been reading are having real problems with them.

Please post your thoughts. We don't plan to re-tune them right away, but we would use this info for a future tuning patch.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Sun 25 Mar, 2012 11:00 pm 
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"Please post your thoughts. We don't play [plan?] to re-tune them right away, but we would use this info for a future tuning patch."

Well, Blorfy, I completed my insane run a while ago and didn't want to bother with it again. So I made a fresh game on Normal difficulty.

I've been playing for a while now (since August I think) and seen the game evolve and change over the past several months. I've found that for the most part the BHs aren't as bad as I thought at least until I encountered the Brute, Mammoth and Manta. Those ships were by far a lot tougher than most anything I've fought up to now. Even Huge ships on Insane difficulty don't compare to those 3. The other ships are quite nasty too in their own right except for the pelican or the left hook (took 3 pelicans firing missiles at my Right Hook to kill it)
(as missiles are not much of a threat; on the topic of missiles what ever happened to upgrading the Freighter with larger missile slots or larger turret slots???)

I found that in many ways the Brute is by far a huge step ahead of all the other large hulls and I'd say its on par with a Hammerhead, despite being in a large hull category.

The Manta and the Mammoth are very dangerous to fight, particularly when you decide to fight than pay up. I found that these two rarely ever show up when attacking a BH base or rarely as zombified ships. I found that you HAVE to keep their attention with another Huge ship otherwise they will go straight for the Clockwork. Fighting them in this manner has caused me to lose my main ship several times as I use a cloak build.

The Manta almost always has two leech beams and 8 fusion beams so when I have to fight it I almost always have no energy reserves (even with LV8 in Reactors + Quick Charge Reactor) and a frontal assault on it always loses. And its difficult to circle around it as it appears somewhat maneuverable.

I can't really comment on the Mammoth as I only saw it once, and its mass bomb nearly destroyed the mothership when its shields were down (was a 10000/10000 Bounty at the time when it came). Just that I'd love to test it out, if I could find it more often.

NOTE: (and well, the Clockwork is a glass cannon and doesn't hold up well to direct assaults; would be nice to see "NUMBERS" on the clockwork as far as HP and Shield Strength so that we can see that research DOES in fact help the Clockwork as I don't think it really does. I say this because I've had LV10 in Hull, and Armor and the clockwork in Chapter 4 still seemed to die just as fast as it did when it has LV6 hull and armor)

What I would really like to see if the ability to equip the clockwork and the beacon with a Cloak if you specialized into cloaking, and a much better shield for the clockwork if you specialized into shields... afterall once the clockwork loses its shield it doesn't get it back for the rest of the fight. Too long a recharge time on it.

Arenas wise, most of them are cut and dry and just take practice... though the one where you have a single dart with a single stock beam against 3 darts with 2 stock beams a piece was quite annoying and I still haven't beaten that one, as well as some of the "timed" battles.

Otherwise, really enjoying the BH expansion and looking forward to more stuff....

PS: Plasma Cutter, Plasma Cutter, Plasma Cutter!


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Sun 25 Mar, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Shortbus

Joined: Sun 25 Mar, 2012 11:12 pm
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i'm new in SPAZ (bought the game with the SPAZ+BH sale)

And i must admit it; its quite challanging even on normal, if you are new to the gerne.
I started a playthrough without reading the forum first, so i completly blew my spec. the first Brut was devestating. After reading some threads, starting to spec in right trees, using Particel Cannons and setting -cascade=0 it was manageble..... to the point where this 8 Fusion Beam, 2 Leecher Emiter Manta came - and it blew my ass to another universe!
So i started rading BH bases to get the Blueprints for the manta, blew a shitload of REZ & Goons to get it....
And yes, the clockwork need more shields/hull...maybe via hull/armor/shild resarch?


so tl:dr
Maybe a better Tutorial, or maybe make ship blueprints buyable via faction reputation... (like the bounty system, only for civ & uta), or give us more/bigger hangers, more/other weapons like emp rockets, or give the manta another flaw then the slow turning rate, some methods to counter an attack...

edit: and yes, i blew most spacestations first because it was easier then farming this shitload of goons to bribe than. there is no fun in farming 500 goons for bringing uta to liking you and then opening the warpgates....


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 1:28 am 
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Shortbus

Joined: Tue 13 Mar, 2012 12:20 am
Posts: 7
After I finished the game once one Veteran, I only play on Insane. I started a Bounty Hunter Insane run and I haven't finished it yet - but I enjoy it immensely.
It's harder, due to buffing the hull strength of all ships and of course because the BHs are assholes.

I may have to explain how I play to get a better picture. I only spec four techs: launcher, shields, engines and sub systems. I got level 2 reactors to use the stadard reactor and level 1 beams for the focal emitter. That's it. I do not use armor at all and I stopped using ai wingmen. They keep on dieing because they are completely unable to stay out of range - they always have the urge to fly right into the carnage.

Right now I'm using the Pelican (took awful long to get the hands on that design - the BH kept on throwing Brutes at me) with a thruster engine. I stay on max range and kill everything with missile or sometimes torpedos. Yes it can take time - but to me that's fun. If I get to close, I die. Being on the run and staying out of range is crucial for survival. I kite and I snipe. I love it.

Naturally, what is hard to me might not be hard for other tech builds. Gravity missiles are a pain. Small fast, cloaked ships with the energy burst cannon are a pain. Cloaked ships in general may be hard because I simply need to be closer to hit them when they fire - otherwise I can't aim at them. Drones can be a pain too, especially when fly very fast (I guess the drone tech level is higher if this is the case)

Generally speaking, I have the hardest time when BHs spawn right next to my ship and I have no time to get away. A cloaked Claw with Energy Burst Cannon is more dangerous to me than a Mammoth or a Manta. A cloaked Dart or Scout with the same weapon is even worse (as they are faster). This might change once I get my last Hunter SRM blueprint, though.

Another point: fighting BH after they sabotaged the warp engines is impossible. After ten seconds the mothership is rubble - I have no chance whatsoever to even start a fight. More HP for the Mothership, please? :)

If I could ask for any specific changes two things come to my mind:
- change launcher booster to be a level 3 tech. This run, I had to find a level 34 System which sold the boosters to be able to finish the Big Fish mission. This was an unnecessary grind.
A Huge Ship Design that focuses on Launchers. The Carrier is ok for this but it is not a specialised vessel. I don't know whether you guys plan on adding more ships, though. But early launcher boosters would definitely help.

But I have to say that I love the new content. I love the BHs, I love that they are global faction and I love the arena challenges. As soon as I run into other problems I will add them to this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 2:13 am 
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Volley
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I haven't felt like BHs are imbalanced. I haven't run up against a lot of hostile Mantas/Mammoths though. Brutes aren't that big of a deal, as I farmed them to get the black boxes and never had much trouble killing them with a Mule. If BH ships are a little stronger on average (maybe on lower difficulties, because I only play on Insane), then they probably deserve it because they can be avoided easily and are uncommon compared to the other kinds of ships. And truthfully, the ships I fear the most are Crawlers.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 2:55 am 
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The brute is worse than the crawler as it has a Huge Mount and two medium (?)

As far as the Launcher Booster goes... I've always wondered why it was LV6 when all other boosters (except goon booster) are LV 3 tech level.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 3:39 am 
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Shortbus

Joined: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 3:33 am
Posts: 9
Did you tweak more than just adding Bounty Hunters? I'm on my fourth playthrough. I enjoyed the others, but now I can't seem to assault any gates or find any decent blueprints. It's getting boring farming goons over and over so I can bribe the gates. Even ordinary missions are taking forever, and I'm losing a lot of ships. This never used to happen. I'm level 35 and can't clear a level 22 gate? Wtf?

So far, I'm friends with the BH's. I play on normal.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 7:51 am 
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What specialization build are you using (ie beam+shield, cannon+cloak, launchers+drones, etc...)


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 9:10 am 
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Gyro

Joined: Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:25 pm
Posts: 136
Quote:
[the manta is] difficult to circle around it as it appears somewhat maneuverable.

I found it quite easy to stay behind. You just need to use a manueverable ship with a decent engine (i.e. right hook).

Quote:
Did you tweak more than just adding Bounty Hunters?

Yes, lots: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2847



My thoughts?
a) I'm not getting attacked much by them and I've spent most of the game with a very high bounty (i.e., it's 10k/10k and has been for quite a while).
b) I don't mind them showing up in the middle of a combat. The difficulty there is ok.
c) I DO mind them attacking my mothership. Mothership defence missions SUCK (I've always hated defence missions in most games). There are a lot of problems here:
    1) You're being assaulted by a massively overwhelming force.
    2) That force comes from all directions but you can only control one ship.
    3) I'm using a beams/mass bombs game (veteran). This doesn't equate to direct, toe-to-toe action which is what you need for defence. Especially not as I don't have any Huge hulls except the freighter nor a single Fusion Beam blueprint (lvl ~65)
    4) When they warp in with ships of type (X) that you need to counter with ships of type (Y) you then need to build ships of type (Y) while being assaulted.
    5) That said, again like item (a) above, I've not had many of them (only one or two).
    6) When (not if) I lose, its just a matter of loading the save game and I don't get assaulted again, which seems kind of exploity.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 10:03 am 
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Shortbus

Joined: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 3:33 am
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I'm using drones/cloak/launchers. Flora or Big Brother at level 45. Drones and launchers at max and cloak at 5. As others have noticed, the AI wingmen have become completely useless except as cannon fodder. They used to actually do some damage before they got wiped...come to think of it, they rarely got wiped before. I mean, I'm playing on *normal*, for pete's sake!

Also, do you *have* to do the arena? I have never enjoyed arena-style puzzle games, in any genre...they all seem too much like work. I just want to shoot stuff and watch it blow up! I just finished on of the BH arena mini-games where the opponent ships were spaced so far apart on the field that it took 3.5 minutes to putter from one to the next...waste of time, you ask me...


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 1:19 pm 
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The Brute is... well, brutal. Combined with the high blueprint requirement, it is easily the strongest and most difficult to obtain Large hull.

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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Gyro

Joined: Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:25 pm
Posts: 136
Quote:
The Brute is... well, brutal.

Only when its the enemy flying it. I've found it's much too slow for many of my purposes (which include fleeing from ships that do far more damage than me), which is an acceptable trade-off given its power.

Quote:
Also, do you *have* to do the arena?

I Don't think you "have" to. I've only attempted/completed the gold tier of the Novice one and noticed no repercussions.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 5:38 pm 
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Nope Arenas are not mandatory. If you want respect blow up their ships or zombie ships instead of doing arenas.

The mothership has been the point of contention for a long while now and I think if the Devs don't do something about, when the game is moddable the first thing that'll be changed is the mothership. K, fine its a glass cannon. How about some drone bays to provide close-range support? Or a couple minelayer slots (PS: only mine layers not mass bombs).. or maybe a slot or two for particle cannons or the like. I notice that the only weapons on the Mothership is the Titan Beam (which against Bounty hunters sucks balls; saw a Manta take a direct it for 3 seconds and barely was hurt; I was like WTH?), maybe one or two disruptors, some low-level missiles, stock cannons, stock beams, and the occasional overload emitter. But no particle cannons, gravity missiles, SRMs, mass drivers, fusion beams, leech/ion beams, you NAME it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 5:42 pm 
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Shortbus

Joined: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 5:21 pm
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I originally posted on the Steam forums about this, but I was really frustrated then. I've had time to collect my thoughts a little.

First, background: This is my first time playing SPAZ. Played on Normal. I've gotten to the start of Chapter 4. I have blueprints for all the tech and all the ships. Main weapons are particle beams and mass drivers. Main hulls are Mammoth and Manta Ray.

Things that have frustrated me:

1. The Mothership Defense Battles: The mothership is weak and dies easily. I can usually fight off several waves, but they just keep coming. The mothership doesn't seem to regen health or armor either (unlike space stations, which are fully repaired after 1 minute). The alternative is to pay the ransom, but that gets irritating sense it doesn't feel like a choice. Plus, BH systems are tightly packed in my game.

2. The Brute, Mammoth, and Manta Ray: These ships are just too hard to beat. I encounter them CONSTANTLY as either Zombies or Bounty Hunter interlopers/attackers. I can usually take down one or even too, but many times another arrives to take its place (especially when fighting Zombies). Plus, they are so good that I feel like I have no motivation to use any of the other ships.

3. Endless Reinforcement Waves: At #3, but probably my #1 source of frustration. The BH's retreat, then reappear, retreat then reappear. You either have to mass retreat (losing the mission) or spend 20-30 minutes fighting off 5-6 waves of them, and you never know when a Mammoth or Manta Ray will appear and wipe you out. Even worse, the Zombie waves in Chapter 4 don't seem to *ever* end. The worst part is, most times these waves don't even kill me or run me out of Rez. They just result in destruction of my beacon preventing me from repairing or reinforcing and forcing a retreat. That gets *really* frustrating -- you are trying to fight a tactical battle against overwhelming odds, are doing pretty well (all things considered) and then -- boom! -- your beacon is gone and you lose. It just doesn't feel fair at all.

Suggestions:

- Balance the Mammoth, Brute, and Manta Ray with the other ships. Or at least reduce their tech level on easier difficulties when you are attacked by them.
- Make the Mammoth, Brute, and Manta Ray unavailable to Zombies (or at least much more rare). I faced FOUR Zombie Mammoths in one of the first side quests in Chapter 4. On Casual difficulty.
- Fewer (or better, NO) reinforcement waves for BH's. One attack should be all they get.
- When you pay the Ransom, remove the bounty from the player. At least you get something for losing all your resources.
- Make BH bases easier to kill.

That's all. I really do enjoy all the other aspects of this game, and I don't regret purchasing it for a second. But the above have made it unplayable for me. Because the devs seem great and responsive, I'm hoping these issues will be fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 5:43 pm 
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The mothership is the part of the game I hate the most. Particulary when I had to defend in Chapter 4 against Huge Zombie assaults (Insane run). Half the time despite my heroic efforts I'd still lose the Mothership.

Either direct customization of it, or add (for lack of better term) a hell of a lot more of more turrets, tractors, PD, and missile slots. Why is there no Huge Slots on a Mothership? All I see at best are Large, Medium, and tons of small slots. Yes its not meant to be a battleship, but even starbases handle better than the Clockwork.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Boomerang
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Don't forget the momma does have that Giga slot (i.e.; the Titan Beam) that basically melts the frak out of anything it so much as touches. ;) Although given how poorly it handles it rarely ever hits anything. Customization of the weapons/modules (even the option to replace the shields/engines) would be a huge plus... if it doesn't happen I expect we'll see a slew of Mothership Refit mods shortly after the tools are released.

I think part of the problem is that your Goon meter isn't considered part of the Clockwork's actual crew count, so essentially they're all just lounging around and drinking all of Elsa's beer instead of fixing up holes.

But, let's face it, even with half the max complement in Chapter 3, it'd have ludicrous hull-repair with decent crew tech. Nevermind Chapter 4...

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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Ranger
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Ok,just the thread i was looking for! :mrgreen:
My inpression of the BH expansion so far is pretty positive, but as i mentioned in another thread, Difficulty does have gone up(not a bad thing really) but it only conserns the BH themselves, the rest seems pretty much unaffected in that regard.

But there are some points that could use inprovement.

1.Mothership Health and defence.
Just as many other posters say, this pretty much is a essential point,since u WILL get your ass handed to u in any defence mission that involves the Clockwork and the BH ships.
Also the fact that there seems to come no end to the BH waves makes refusing their payments not an option...

2.Getting BH black boxes.
While i have't come in contact with the Huge BH hulls yet, i have found getting black boxes to be a tiring affair...
I can understand that they should't be easy to get but 8-10 boxes per ship design is alot even in that regard!
Still have't gotten my hands on the Brute. :cry:

3.Ship Balance.
Since the Bounty Hunters have joined the fray,their more powerful ships have been playing havoc on the general ship balance, and as such, ships that have more hull strength are pretty much the only way to survive encounters with them,forcing u to use ships that are always a size catagory bigger then whats flying around simply to survive!
It also makes a great deal of the Civ and UTA ships underpowered or just plain useless,something that is seen most under the Mass bombs ships, making the UTA Helix the only one who can survive in most engagements.
While this forces players to use some ships they would normally never use(I'm using the Mule as main assault ship couse its the only one thats the most versitile and strong eneugh to survive most direct attacks) it makes many just useless to have anymore.
So either pimp them up a little(increase sizes of turret/weapon slots or make them more resilient to attacks)
or boost the defencive tech in the research screen(Shields,Hull and Armor mainly) so it gets more effective.

4.Star map generation.
I found that when i started a new game and made a galaxy with 200 systems, it was generated in a rather unusual manner, u see, it had formed an rather straightforward path with some lone low-lvl systems somewhere in a corner and all the Bounty hunter watched systems crammed together!
While u guys did a great job putting the story missions more together, it seems to have unforseen side-effects.
For the rest its a Great Expansion!
Btw, i have been playing all of this on Normal difficulty.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 8:48 pm 
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Shortbus

Joined: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 5:21 pm
Posts: 3
Quote:
Difficulty does have gone up(not a bad thing really) but it only conserns the BH themselves, the rest seems pretty much unaffected in that regard.


I've seen this said a lot. I wonder, is my particular game somehow unique or buggy? Because I am getting loads of zombified bounty hunter ships. Is anybody else seeing this, or are the BH ships pretty much restricted to the Bounty Hunters themselves in most games? Playing on Normal.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 10:29 pm 
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Shortbus

Joined: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 3:33 am
Posts: 9
Is there a way we can go back a version or two and uninstall the BH "upgrade"?


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Tue 27 Mar, 2012 1:09 am 
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Why'd ya want to do that?


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Tue 27 Mar, 2012 1:15 am 
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Dart
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sohei kuma wrote:
Quote:
Difficulty does have gone up(not a bad thing really) but it only conserns the BH themselves, the rest seems pretty much unaffected in that regard.


I've seen this said a lot. I wonder, is my particular game somehow unique or buggy? Because I am getting loads of zombified bounty hunter ships. Is anybody else seeing this, or are the BH ships pretty much restricted to the Bounty Hunters themselves in most games? Playing on Normal.


I see a lot of BH zombies too. But I'm kinda level 115 on veteran difficulty so now instead of always being able to defend without paying attention when a huge wave of zombies attacks, I have to now kinda try.


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Tue 27 Mar, 2012 2:25 am 
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Developer
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Keep the posts coming :) We do appreciate this everyone and will take this data very seriously into consideration as we tune the game. It is a big help. The reason that I am not more active in responding is that I am "supposed" to be away from the computer this week, but the wife is busy, so I am sneaking this forum check in under the radar :)


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Tue 27 Mar, 2012 2:28 am 
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Dart
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Blorfy wrote:
Keep the posts coming :) We do appreciate this everyone and will take this data very seriously into consideration as we tune the game. It is a big help. The reason that I am not more active in responding is that I am "supposed" to be away from the computer this week, but the wife is busy, so I am sneaking this forum check in under the radar :)

I wont tell don't worry ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Tue 27 Mar, 2012 3:26 am 
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Yes, well I'd say that I agree. The point that was made about Zombies using BH ships? I agree. Had to fight 3 Manta rays. At Level 50.

Mothership not regenerating? I agree. Come on guys, at least put in the Mothership crew as a percentage of the overall goon pool, like, 10% or so. Mothership health bars are still something that I would like to see.

Hard-to-get Blueprints are okay as long as it doesn't feel grindy. The worst thing I saw was that I had just finished getting my Blueprints for the wasp and left hook, only to be encountering several of them at the next mission. That is just plain mean.

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 Post subject: Re: Bounty Hunter Impressions (Too hard?)
PostPosted: Tue 27 Mar, 2012 4:04 am 
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Hound
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Or, instead of changing the motherships damage capabilities, how about you improve its engines and maneuverability.. come on its slower than the Death Star (Star Wars) and a whole lot less smaller.


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