MinMax Spaz

MinMax-Games.com

The water cooler of outer space
  
It is currently Wed 21 Feb, 2018 6:23 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2011 6:41 am 
Offline
Developer
User avatar

Joined: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 3:39 am
Posts: 1767
Hi everyone.

I was wondering how everyone is finding chapter 4 now in comparison to how it was before v1.005. I know it is a lot harder, but is it too hard? We don't have a ton of data on it and there were a ton of tweaks. Have critters become too much of a menace with their new speed for example?

If there are some people new to the game who could comment too that would be cool, as a lot of our forum goers are experts now and getting someone's first impression of chapter 4 would be useful. SPAZ definitely gets easier as you learn how to exploit different techs, but for someone on their first run through is it just too tough?

Thanks for your thoughts.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2011 7:11 am 
Offline
Scout
User avatar

Joined: Fri 07 Oct, 2011 3:12 pm
Posts: 28
Location: England
Hi just picked this game up yesterday off steam after seeing it on TotalBisciut's 'WTF' video.
Am currently playing through on the normal difficulty setting. Given my current level of addiction it shouldn't take me too long to get to that stage. I'll report back with any issues or problems that I have as I encounter them.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2011 7:25 am 
Offline
Developer
User avatar

Joined: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 3:39 am
Posts: 1767
Excellent, thanks very much. This is very useful information to us.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2011 7:28 am 
Offline
Clockwork Personnel
User avatar

Joined: Sat 26 Feb, 2011 12:12 am
Posts: 584
Will loading old saves before the chapter change point provide valid test cases ?

If so I can run my set of chapter transition saves and test them if that's a concern, This weekend.

_________________
"It works cause I stand next to it radiating science and wonder."
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2011 10:16 am 
Offline
Scout
User avatar

Joined: Sat 26 Feb, 2011 10:51 am
Posts: 25
Location: The Netherlands
I haven't made it to chapter 4 yet.

Trying a weapon ... not liking it -> restart
Trying a different tech ... not liking it -> respec ... repsec ... restart
Wanna do it all over again -> restart

Meh .. I'm an altaholic AND perfectionist .. what can I say?
I'll give some feedback when I get there. (Chapter 3 now!)
Though I pretty much know most of the system in and out already .... I hope it is still useful in some way.

EDIT:
Looks like I won't be getting there anytime soon. If I do I'll post the feedback if still needed.
Sorry.

_________________
Slow and steady may not always win the race, but at least it doesn't end up splattered on the walls.


Last edited by Nightweaver on Sun 16 Oct, 2011 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sat 08 Oct, 2011 7:16 pm 
Offline
Hound
User avatar

Joined: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 3:54 am
Posts: 1400
In chapter 3 currently... critters are about as annoying as they were in the beta... as long as you stay ahead of em, you should be fine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 4:14 am 
Offline
Shortbus

Joined: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 4:04 am
Posts: 2
I can only compare v1.001 normal to v1.005 veteran (the patch caught me mid-campaign) but I like the critter difficulty. They made me watch out for the infected eye symbol, I now use "vent the decks" command, and they taught me to send back ships for repair/crew restock.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct, 2011 2:15 pm 
Offline
Boomerang
User avatar

Joined: Tue 10 May, 2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Australia
So far it does not seem difficult. Usually I don't lose any of my ships in missions except for the occassional Colt or Saucer when I'm not watching them. I rarely have my ships get infected either, usually they just get outright destroyed. Critters are annoying and tend to stick to my Star Cruiser, but its auto-turrets can usually clean them off.

The only problem I've had was during a zombie attack on my Mothership. As I specced Cloak rather than Shields, the Mothership practically melted if I let any zombie ships and critters near it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Wed 12 Oct, 2011 4:48 pm 
Offline
Scout

Joined: Wed 12 Oct, 2011 4:37 pm
Posts: 28
I was about half way in chapter 4 on normal with all the major techs up to level 10 when the patch came out. I was breezing through every system before and then I definitely had to slow down after the patch, more for limited resources then combat. The fights were not to hard but I had to keep a closer eye on my escorts as well as my clean off my carrier with a colt when it got to covered in zombies. Pre patch all I did was fire up my engines and leave them in my wake, post patch I couldn't out run them with lvl 10 Engine upgrades. Point defense didn't seem to help much back when I used it but I guess I should try it again. I did wish the Huge hauls had a little more customization when I unlocked them. Some small turrets or utility mounts for point defense, or an option to have your drones stay closer to you to keep your ship clean.

I can't wait to see what new ships we get in the future and I'll have to play through again when we do.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 6:17 am 
Offline
Dart

Joined: Sun 21 Aug, 2011 10:14 am
Posts: 13
My only complaint is a well-upgraded point defense should be able to kill zombies faster. (in general I feel the point defense is too weak; usually doesn't do enough damage to targets, targeted mines and missiles just slam into the hull anyway).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 5:22 pm 
Offline
Hound
User avatar

Joined: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 3:54 am
Posts: 1400
I'm having no problems... my experimental cloak hammerhead with lvl 10 engines w/ inertial engine works great against anything.. especially critters.

Though, I'm still finding chapter 4 boring... The wierd thing is that I have tons of fun when playing chapter 1 to 3, but then I dread chapter 4 not because it is necessarily harder but because its just not that much fun... its kind of like playing a game legitimately for the first half of the game, and then turning on god mode for the other half.

Just my opinion though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Thu 13 Oct, 2011 11:52 pm 
Offline
Dart

Joined: Tue 27 Sep, 2011 11:10 pm
Posts: 14
I have played through the game ten times, twice since the latest patch. My thoughts are that chapter four is far too easy. The critters aren't much of a problem except for the smallest ships. I agree that the point defense still seems a little weak without a lot of upgrades, but I don't find it worth upgrading much. Cannons IMO are still far superior to beams, though missiles are now much better. The level cap for the enemies seems too low and they die instantly (even high level stations are no match). By the time I get to chapter four I have no trouble breezing through. Leveling slows down but I've already gotten all the techs I need to slaughter by that point. I enjoy the earlier chapters more as 4 is a cakewalk. I usually have all the red techs for shields, cannons, engines, armor, and reactors by the end of chapter 3.
I love sending goons to enemy ships to steal tech. Very nice touch. I can't wait for more ships and hope to be fighting much higher level enemies in later patches.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 12:54 am 
Offline
Hound
User avatar

Joined: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 3:54 am
Posts: 1400
It might make a difference if all the warp gate levels in chapter 4 were level 90 to 120, with the boss battle at level 120, which is the simplest way to do it, so that ships are still a threat no matter which part of the game you are in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sat 15 Oct, 2011 8:51 pm 
Offline
Scout
User avatar

Joined: Tue 13 Sep, 2011 10:11 pm
Posts: 42
Still too easy. We need MOAR zombies :)
timsfitz wrote:
Cannons IMO are still far superior to beams, though missiles are now much better.

+1
Missiles looks ok.
AI ships can't normally use mines. Ship deploys bomb dropper, then fly afar and destroys dropper.
Bombs are completely useless. Here is no chance to aim them to targeted ship. And it late game ships are fast enough to leave dangerous area before secondary charges explodes.
And please return old bonuses to specialists. Here should be another way to make game harder.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sat 15 Oct, 2011 11:35 pm 
Offline
Hound
User avatar

Joined: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 3:54 am
Posts: 1400
I concur old bonuses back to specialists XD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct, 2011 1:05 am 
Offline
Shortbus

Joined: Sun 16 Oct, 2011 12:55 am
Posts: 4
My thoughts on Patch 1.005/6:

Nerfing Specialists was needed -- they are still a very powerful boost to fleet setup. Although I would like to see a Female specialist who likes to "work with men."

I think the nerf to shields was too much. My current playthrough has been Beams / Missiles & Drones. In chapter 4, shields are like paper -- once they fall, there's no stopping the zombies from swarming you. I know hull / armor is supposed to be important, but I was forced to up them to Lv8 each before pushing into Chapter 4 because conflicts in 3 were just too difficult to rely on shield tanking. In Ch4, Armor boosting / hull boosting specialists are so much more valuable than shield regen / boosts. On my next playthroughs shielding will just be an afterthought :(

As for beams, I find them more viable now, although relying on beam fits means longer playthrough times than cannons. Also, Bomber drones are getting bonuses from cannons, not beams -- would be nice to have some alternatives for high end beam / drone builds. As they are, drone ships with a beam / missile focus is sub-par to cannons by far. It's just much longer clear times for missions & encounters with beam fits.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct, 2011 3:03 am 
Offline
Gyro

Joined: Sat 14 May, 2011 10:45 am
Posts: 124
Continuing my previous file which was already in chapter 4, I'm finding resource management actually exists now where it didn't before, and that there finally is a fairly big risk of getting my mothership asploded if I'm not careful to be well within friendly territory when the intercept fleet catches me.

This is on Expert, btw.

My big complaint now is that the intercept fleet attacking every so many jumps makes getting the achievement for clearing all infection much more tedious than it has to be. I would love for it to be toned down and be made to work like I keep hearing the bounty hunters will work. Chasing me down in real time and possibly making a mission to reclaim a system more of a challenge (oh crap, reinforcements!) sounds fun to me, as well as not having to defend the mothership so dang often.

I nearly forgot to mention that my setup is primarily focused on beefing up a variety of Drone types and then supplementing them with missile spam and a Gyro, and that I've been replacing my active Specialists with the newer ones as I get the newer ones. Just using an old one that beefs up Drone Health by around 60% now.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct, 2011 6:15 am 
Offline
Developer
User avatar

Joined: Fri 25 Feb, 2011 3:39 am
Posts: 1767
Thanks everyone for the notes. Sorry to not reply to them all. They are being read and assimilated. Just trying to get as many opinions as possible to guide the next phase of tuning.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Sun 16 Oct, 2011 7:25 am 
Offline
Hound
User avatar

Joined: Thu 15 Sep, 2011 3:54 am
Posts: 1400
I'm actually finding cloak to be more useful than shields atm... with cloak, at sufficiently high level and engines at sufficiently high level, even without the extra damage boost done by weapons, the cloak generally helps keep one alive much longer than shields do. Perhaps for shields, instead of increase recharge rate (major pain if you are specced projectiles and have no ebc) increase shield strength by about 25% to 100% depending on shield being used (25% for stock shield, 50% for quick charge, 75% for standard and 100% for fortress shield). I think this would make shields a more viable option, especially late-game.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Tue 18 Oct, 2011 11:36 am 
Offline
Boomerang
User avatar

Joined: Tue 10 May, 2011 4:11 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Australia
Okay, so I finally finished a playthrough with the latest patch on Expert Difficulty, and without seriously using Specialists (I generally just level useless Specialists and vent them for data, never got around to using the ones I've been saving), ending at something like level 110.

Overall, Chapter 4 seemed quite easy; there were only a few parts where it got a bit hectic, and that's usually when the Mothership is being attacked (due to my Tech being mostly incompatible with the Mothership's Tech) and because of my self-imposed reload-if-lose-ship rule (which admittedly I didn't always follow to the letter).

The final mission is still very easy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Tue 18 Oct, 2011 6:42 pm 
Offline
Dart

Joined: Tue 18 Oct, 2011 5:42 pm
Posts: 18
Finished a couple runs since the update. Wow those critters are much more annoying than my first run just before the update. I guess I don't mind not being able to just hit the gas and leave them behind once they've hit my hull, but at that point the PD really needs to be able to actively shoot them while they're on your hull. My turrets and drones will pick them off for me, why not my PD? Also on the PD, it seems kinda understrength trying to take down the critters coming at me and enemy drones. Is it intended to only be useful at max tech?

Missles feel much more effective, cannons don't seem quite so OP, and I like that beams are finding a niche as the class for messing with the other guy's ship instead of flat out destroying it. The loss of mines as supertanks kinda hurts sometimes, but this makes so much more sense. And being able to really use your crew as a weapon AND get blueprints for it is awesome!

Glad I finished the War Hero achievement on my first run. Gets really tedious clearing out system after system with minimal gain for the final fight.

Finally, my wingmen aren't shooting my tractored stuff as much, but they are still doing it. I understand they're a lil twitchy with the new critters and all, but I really need some of those lifepods they're destroying.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct, 2011 2:27 am 
Offline
Gyro

Joined: Fri 07 Oct, 2011 4:29 am
Posts: 103
I'd like an option to tell the drones on a ship to focus on clearing zombie critters instead of running after whatever I have targeted. I've had drones run off to fight (and die) against a zombified ship I have targeted when there's like 20 critters stuck to my hull. Toggling the drone bay repeatedly can kinda work, but it's clunky and not fully effective.

On a side note, the computer getting to target and send drones after my mine layers is absurdly effective, considering the mines won't attack the drones and the drones can often finish off a mine layer before the ship itself ever gets into the mine field.

Playing on the second highest difficulty, currently.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct, 2011 2:48 am 
Offline
Grasshopper

Joined: Sun 18 Sep, 2011 2:50 pm
Posts: 54
As I've mentioned elsewhere, the game got very slow once I hit Chapter 4 (probably the fault of my PC, not SPAZ) so I'm not the best judge given that I was fighting poorly and frustrated due to bad 'stutter' in the initial side-missions when you first arrive in Chapter 4.

So take this with a grain of salt, but here were my initial observations as a "new" (to Chapter 4) player on Veteran, first SPAZ playthrough.

- Point defense feels a bit weak against critters. It's effective against incoming missiles, generally. Against critters, though, it only seemed effective if I had PD in both Huge utility mounts on the Carrier or Hammerhead. On the Star Cruiser, putting PD in that microscopic utility mount is pointless. (I'd argue that having the mount be that small is a general problem for the Star Cruiser.)

- Critters in general are obnoxious and frustratingly difficult to deal with. Maybe I'm being given the tools to do so and I just haven't discovered the loadout or tactics that will trigger an "aha!" moment. I tried the idea that Andrew or Richard mentioned in the podcast - having a small ship armed with beams or SRMs to work solely on clearing critters, but they haven't been effective in that role yet. So the critters are an annoyance for my capital ship (making it a pain in the ass to get my shields up if they fall), they were pretty lethal on my small and medium ships, often tearing them apart in seconds. (Literally, before I could even open the Tactics panel and vent the crew of the afflicted ship.) I'm still not very clear on the mechanism by which these critters are spawned / directed (or fired from zombie ships?) so that plays a part, too.

- The difficulty jump from Ch. 3 to 4 is significant. It was a bit jarring - I'd been experiencing a nice level of challenge up until that point, but the initial battles in Chapter 4 were an order of magnitude harder than anything previously. Obviously arriving in Ch4 should be an "aw no, shit just got REAL" moment, and it should get harder, but right now the transition feels a little harsh. (But, again, my PC's antiquated hardware played a part.)

I'm sure Ch4 is indeed easy-breezy for those who have finished the game 5-10 times and memorized the damage calculations for the Mass Driver complete with factoring for size, wind speed, sparrow velocity, etc. ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct, 2011 7:24 am 
Offline
Dart

Joined: Sun 16 Oct, 2011 2:10 am
Posts: 24
Honestly I had the opposite problem from SuperJay. Up until Ch4 everything was a good challenge. Not too hard and not too easy. But then in Ch4 with the new hangars some things got too easy and some things got too hard.

Here are the problems I have with Ch4:

- The battles themselves are about right (although it can be too easy with certain builds), but I never really worry about losing ships because killing just 1 enemy is usually enough to pay for the cost of my whole fleet and then some. I would lower the rez drop rate a bit. A ship shouldn't drop more rez than it costs to build it I think. Every once in a while my beacon will get swarmed and then it will get very challenging all of a sudden, but that's perfectly fine and to be expected. Plus it's very rare that it happens anyway.

- The gameplay itself changes a little too much. You can no longer kill a ship that can drop goons, and you can't assault stations anymore other than the randomly spawning zombie stations (these aren't problems in and of themselves, I expect the gameplay to change a good bit). But as a result goons become much more rare, and in every case they have been my most limited resource in Ch4.

- Just to give a comparison of what I mean. Your rez cap starts at 2500 and goons start at 150. In Ch4 your rez cap is 50,000 and goons cap at 1500. That means the rez cap increased by 20x but the goon cap only increased by 10x. Add onto that the fact that the goon cost for upgrading stations is nearly half of your full cap whereas the rez cost is significantly lower by comparison (even though it's higher than the goon cost). Plus you can farm rez at a mining station basically for free, but the only ways to get goons in Ch4 are from mission rewards and the somewhat-rare Cheap Motels. Both of those are very limited by comparison. Add all of these facts together and I'm almost always capped in rez and below half in goons. Edit: forgot you can get goons from freed stations, but still they're very limited.

- In other words it's too easy in the wrong places and too hard in the wrong places. I really felt up until Ch4 that the difficulty was spread fairly evenly across battles, missions, and economics. But once you get to Ch4 the battles are too easy due to low rez costs for ships and high rez drops from enemies. Missions are about right. And the economics is way out of balance.

All of that said, it's still a great game. I just feel it changes a bit too dramatically during the last chapter.

In short, I would suggest these changes (or something similar):

- Lower the rez drop rate from enemy ships. One huge ship dropping 2500+ rez is a little overboard. It gets even worse if the ship happened to pick up some rez along the way.
- Increase the goon cap and/or increase the goon rewards from missions and/or increase the goon drop rate from Cheap Motels and/or increase the spawn rate of Cheap Motel areas. Any combination of those changes would probably be good, or even just one of them.
- And something I would change despite the fact that it's not really a problem on the difficulty side of things, I would lower the number of spawning zombie ships and critters but increase their individual power. Including ships that have been converted into zombie ships. But that's just so there aren't so many on-screen at once. I think that could go a long way to helping with my FPS problems in CH4 although it's not that bad.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: So how is chapter 4 since version 1.005
PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct, 2011 7:43 pm 
Offline
Gyro

Joined: Sat 14 May, 2011 10:45 am
Posts: 124
Goons aren't all that limited in chapter four. I'll agree that Rez is far too plentiful, but you can collect plenty of goons from freed systems. The problem is solely the cap. If you could run around collecting goons from multiple systems to then fund upgrading multiple stations, it wouldn't seem nearly so bad. Taking half or more of your goon cap is what makes them seem so rare.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group