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 Post subject: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sat 14 May, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Grasshopper
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Hiya everybody,
I wanna discuss the missiles and rockets and maybe the torpedoes too. I'd also be happy if somebody could explain to me why the Launcher research has a negative impact on reload speed.

Keep in mind that I have not yet met any Zombies, nor have I captured a huge hull, so I don't know about lvl 50+ game.

Currently I strongly get the feeling that rockets and missiles are simply too weak, maybe because they don't really do any damage until both armor and shield are down.
Beams can be reaaaally strong, just take a gander at The Right Hook. That's just extreme... :D
Now, we don't really have anything to compare that one to, maybe The Volley? Nope, different hull class and the six(!) slots for missiles (2 medium 4 small) don't even come close in terms of damage to three beams (3 large, I believe?), even though they should always hit.
I also recognize that the launchers don't suck capacitor energy and thus are more suited for steady damage over time. Yet when I try to compare (which is pretty hard, considering there is no ship for launchers as is The Right Hook for energy weapons), ships always die quick to a beaming Right Hook, even without much time to regenerate my capacitor mid battle and I just keep going after the next ship? Yet when I use mainly missiles in my entire team, there is just no way to beat them as quick?

It would seem to me that missiles are just not very efficient weapons. Even if you pack the SRM on your launchers, which are supposed to have a higher damage per volley than the normal missiles, I have to say I'm disappointed. Yes, a couple of SRM can seriously mess with drone carriers, but you need more than one launcher for that. That's something The Volley excels at, not even my Flora does it that well.

In an attempt to improve the general experience, I tried to fit torpedoes on every launcher in the party. That's four small torpedo launchers on The Flora and another four on The Rangers. Yes, the damage really does quite increase, but it isn't so easy to get them to hit the target and even if they all do, why does an entire party packed with blue torpedoes, yellow drones and either two small blue lasers and two small blue cannons or four small blue lasers still not come close to a single Right Hook equipped with three blue beams, one beam booster and one reactor booster?

I really think the missiles need some proper buffing, not that much, but a good increase in damage or reload speed should do it. I mean, if you think about it, energy weapons heavily gain from research in Reactor, but Launchers only gain from the Launcher and from the Subsystems research? That's somehow not so fair... Maybe we just need some damage or reload speed increase for launchers based on reactor research levels? That sounds good, actually.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sat 14 May, 2011 9:12 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Sat 14 May, 2011 7:54 pm
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they're weak on shields, so alone they're not very effecient, however if you can get the shields down - and the enemy doesntr have much armor it can break through hull quite quickly


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sat 14 May, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Grasshopper
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Yeah, against the hull they indeed are decent. But except for tiny ships, everybody does use armor and the missiles just... fail against them. And once the shields are down, damage tends to seep through the armor to the hull, so by the time the armor would be down, I don't need the launchers anymore anyway. Almost completely useless, so to say. If the missiles at least had some effect that makes all other damage partly bypass armor, they'd be nice. Would be logical too, since they could punch holes into the armor, through which the beams and drones and stuff could get a shot against the hull. Projectile weapons seem to melt away the armor, so missiles, rockets and torpedoes could blow holes into it instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sat 14 May, 2011 9:28 pm 
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Dart

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the biggest advantage of missiles imho, is the fact that they're generally fire and forget, you can shoot them frm across the map (almost) compared to lasers or cannons you can soften up the target while your travelling.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sat 14 May, 2011 10:00 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Tue 10 May, 2011 1:43 am
Posts: 13
With huge ships I don't think missles are weak at all. In fact one of the strongest ship/weapon combos I have found is the carrier with 8 small srm and a couple missle boosters for non-stop firing. It literally chews through armor, shields and anything else very quickly with lvl 10 launcher. A full volley is like 80 missles every 4 seconds. I've also seen people talk about the star cruiser with torpedos and missles as being very powerful as well.
Like anything else the more points you put into launchers the better they are and especially the higher levels add a lot of dmg %. I also used srm quite a bit in the early game and found them to be more effective then most of the beams and cannons. I think a lot of it depends on where you spend your research points. The game isn't even that hard right now at higher levels with full missle loadouts so I don't think making them any stronger is really a good idea. They never run out of energy and with a lot of them and some boosters you ed up with some of the highest continuous dps in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sat 14 May, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Grasshopper
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So they just don't scale that well, compared to energy weapons, beams mainly?

Also, does the 3rd point really increase the time it takes to reload, or is that just a typo?


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sat 14 May, 2011 11:10 pm 
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Gopher

Joined: Thu 12 May, 2011 11:25 am
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PaterFrog wrote:
So they just don't scale that well, compared to energy weapons, beams mainly?

Also, does the 3rd point really increase the time it takes to reload, or is that just a typo?


I think it's probably down to research (as with all weapons i suppose), because currently i'm level 31, and with launcher tech at 5 (280% damage bonus) they are my main damage dealers, i have beams to take down shields but after that the SRM's are doing most of my damage, and they do it very well, at the very least at no point have i thought they needed a damage boost. The more basic forms of launchers do seem to be a bit sub-par though, at least i have never considered switching back to missiles or torpedoes.

as to the -5% reload speed thing, thats more of a logic thing (assuming it's not a bug),for example 100 secs reload time, minus 5% is 95 seconds, so a quicker reload


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 12:24 am 
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Grasshopper
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If it takes research level 5 until the launcher does it's job well enough, then that means that 1-4 aren't balanced properly. They need an improvement, maybe something around +5% each, while level 5 could be weakened by that amount, so that we arrive at the same strength at level 5.

The tooltip says -5% reload speed. That means you reload 5% slower. It doesn't say -5% reload time.^^


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 4:05 am 
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Ranger
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PaterFrog wrote:
The tooltip says -5% reload speed. That means you reload 5% slower. It doesn't say -5% reload time.^^

It's only in how you're interpreting it. The other values (beam length, cannon range, etc.) are multiplier values, based off the base value of the weapon. Therefore, if you buy that first -5% upgrade, the multiplier for reload speed should read 95% instead of 100%. I know mine did.

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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 4:07 am 
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Boomerang
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He's right... think about it. Is 95% reloading SPEED faster or slower than 100%? If I say I'm running at 50% your speed, does that mean I'm faster or slower than you?


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 4:42 am 
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Scout

Joined: Sat 07 May, 2011 3:06 pm
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That is true,

Reloading speed should be changed to "Reloading time" to make it correct for 80% > 100% in terms of DPS.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 4:57 am 
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Ranger
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As far as reload speed vs. reload time, I think this is more of a semantics issue than a mechanics one. Remember that the changes that are made by your upgrades are multipliers. In this case, it's specifically stating that the reload speed becomes 95% of the base speed. Because this leads to a reduction of the base speed, you're able to fire faster. It would not matter whether the game terminology is "reload speed" or "reload time" as they are in this case functionally identical, and affected by a multiplier.

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"I once shot a Cylon in Reno, just to watch him Resurrect."


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 6:37 am 
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Grasshopper
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If you'd just told me that we now go (reload time)*0.95 instead of (reload time)*1, I'd have understood it :D

Now, there is still the matter with buffing ranks 1-4 a bit.
Do you guys think that those levels should be a little bit stronger than now?

I just gained Launcher 6 or 7, and the difference is HUGE. Just going from 4 to 5 is like a whole different world. I believe that should be smoothened out, or the first 10 points are just a waste.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 6:46 am 
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Volley
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Research is random.

Mind = blown?


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 7:56 am 
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Hatchet
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Missiles become a lifesaver once you run into "you know who". SRM boating volley with engine booster for dancing is easily one of my favourite ships currently. Just rips apart organic stuff. Carrier with either SRMs or missiles does a great job too.
Before that they are effective support weapon. The only real problem really is that AI pilots should understand to keep their distance when missile boating with volley. Have got the problem of wingmen charging into close-range combat even though they could have hanged back and mauled the enemies with missiles.

Still, have to agree that low-level missile upgrades would benefit from small buffs.

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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 9:48 am 
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Boomerang
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Genmanator wrote:
As far as reload speed vs. reload time, I think this is more of a semantics issue than a mechanics one. Remember that the changes that are made by your upgrades are multipliers. In this case, it's specifically stating that the reload speed becomes 95% of the base speed. Because this leads to a reduction of the base speed, you're able to fire faster. It would not matter whether the game terminology is "reload speed" or "reload time" as they are in this case functionally identical, and affected by a multiplier.


95% of base speed means it is less than base speed. A reduction to speed means you fire slower, not faster. If I am running, and reduce my speed to 50%, am I going faster or slower? On the other hand, 95% of reload time means it takes less time, which means faster speed.

An increase in speed is good, while a decrease in speed is bad. Conversely, an increase in time is bad, while a decrease in time is good. Reload speed and reload time are, roughly, inverses of each other, and therefore have rather the opposite result when affected by the same multiplier.

And btw, as FDru said... research bonuses are random every game. In one game you could have awesome bonuses on the first few levels, in others you might get worthless bonuses. Only the total bonus given by researching a subject fully is fixed. So, talking about "fixing" levels of research doesn't really mean anything, it is an artifact of the system.

Which personally I think is annoying. I'd much rather if every level of research provided benefits proportional to their worth: so level 1 would be 1/55 of the total bonus of the subject, level 5 would be 1/11 of the subject, and level 10 would be 2/11 of the subject, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 10:56 am 
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Ranger
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Toxicologist wrote:
95% of base speed means it is less than base speed/ A reduction to speed means you fire slower, not faster. If I am running, and reduce my speed to 50%, am I going faster or slower? On the other hand, 95% of the time it takes to reload means less time, which means faster speed.

An increase in speed is good, while a decrease in speed is bad. Conversely, an increase in time is bad, while a decrease in time is good. Reload speed and reload time are, roughly, inverses of each other, and therefore have rather the opposite result when affected by the same multiplier.

I stated that they are functionally identical, because in this instance, one can look at it from two different points of view, but both have the same result...

Viewpoint 1: "Your weapon now fires 5% faster."

Is exactly the same in effect as:

Viewpoint 2: "Your weapon has a reload speed multiplier of 95% (thus 0.95) to its base rate.

Both result in a 5% increase to the rate of fire, but they are expressed differently. Upgrades to weapon reload speeds do in fact decrease the time between shots, specifically because they reduce this time multiplier value.

Here's how it applies: If a weapon has a base reload speed of four seconds, and you have an upgrade that makes your reload speed modifier 95%, that means in this example, that you multiply that base speed of four seconds by 0.95, which gives you a new firing rate of one shot every 3.8 seconds, for that particular weapon. You're not adding more time to the base, but you're changing the multiplier's value. By the same token, if your reload speed modifier is 80%, with the same weapon as noted above, the reload speed is multiplied by 0.80, for a result of one shot every 3.0 seconds. One could also say you're increasing the rate of fire by 5% or 20%, respectively, and both would still be correct.

In regards to other values, such as turn speed, acceleration, and of course damage, then of course those percentages will be over 100%, because you are adding a larger multiplier to the base value, and increasing the effect. With reload speeds, the multiplier is applied by reducing the base reload speed multiplier, and base reload speed is a measurement of time. In summation, you're reducing the amount of time between shots, not increasing it.

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"I once shot a Cylon in Reno, just to watch him Resurrect."


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 4:03 pm 
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Scout

Joined: Sun 15 May, 2011 1:51 am
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Missiles are not to weak at all i even feel like they are way to strong vs zombie ships.And if shields are down hell they really do a lot off dmg.

Now you only have reached the lvl 50 game atm so i understand your point they are not too strong early game. In-fact before stage 4 i used Beams on my main ship and lunchers were only used on my second an 3d ship.(hammerhead rules ;D)I did not tech cannons so i cant tell if they are really good but considering how fast my hammerhead destroyed Armor with the Large fusion Beam emitter i did not see why i should use them.

Against zombies i found lasers to be well not good at all ....you need to be close range so they get a lot of dmg on your shield and then they infect you.So i changed to The Star Cruiser with 4 huge missiles and 4 Huge luncher Boosters (trust me you dont need the beams) all you have to do now is press ALT-G and wait till all the zombies are dead .


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 5:33 pm 
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Dart

Joined: Mon 09 May, 2011 7:08 pm
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I can confirm that Missiles pick up performance suddenly at tech levels 6 and higher. Missiles you seriously should get are SRMs and Gravity Missiles. The SRMs have serious damage output in numbers and the Gravity Missiles will let you win impossible missions, including the infamous Pandoras Box 5/6.

Early on, missiles leave a lot to be desired. In future patches, maybe the effectiveness should not curve so steeply.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 5:57 pm 
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Ranger
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SnowDrakE wrote:
I can confirm that Missiles pick up performance suddenly at tech levels 6 and higher.

A minor correction: As has been stated here and elsewhere, the tech trees have randomized bonuses throughout each field, in every game. It's also true that at maximum levels, the sum of each bonus will be the same, even if each individual path to become maxed out will change from game to game. So, your research in a field might ramp up at level 4-5 in one game, but only at 6-7 in another. The RNG can be quite cruel.

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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Sun 15 May, 2011 7:02 pm 
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Grasshopper
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I wasn't aware of the RNG in research. I'm not sure I'm a fan of that. I suppose, depending on how you look at it, it can be exciting to figure out which path you should take through the research levels, on the other hand it's annoying if you basically can't do what you want without expecting lots of trouble...


And for a last time, in the research it says "-5% reload speed". On my tech tree anyway. That means you reload 5% slower, you take 5% longer to reload. You can't turn that anyway you like just because the mathematics say otherwise. It's good old English, and in good old English it means that you now take 5 seconds longer than before, if you had a 100 second reload.
Of course, the mechanics might actually do the whole 0.95 multiplier stuff, but the tooltip says something different... Maybe we just need a plus instead of the minus, then people would understand what it means. Or change the word "speed" into "time".

This is what's supposed to happen and probably IS happening:
(reload time)*1 = (old reload time) -> (reload time)*(1-0.05) = (reload time)*0.95 = (new reload time)

This is how we're supposed to think when we read the tooltip:
(reload speed)*(reload time) = (old reload time)
->
(reload speed) - 5% = 1 - 0.05
(reload speed) = 0.95
(reload speed)*(reload time) = (reload time) - 0.05

The tooltip has language in it ("reload speed"), so people who aren't trained otherwise, will let the part of our brain that handles language do the thinking here:
"Before it took me one second to reload. Here it says that it's going to be slower by five percent if I put in a point, so it's going to take me five percent of a second longer. Why?!? Don't get it. Oo Probably my mistake, gotta check the forums."

To express it all in other words:
Change the tooltip in a way, that people who don't like mathematics understand it without asking. SPAZ is a game after all, not problem to be solved my mathematics students.^^


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2011 6:53 am 
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Scout
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it definatlely depends on the ship, there are some bigger ships like the carrier that has insane amounts of missile slots and plenty of other weapon slots that can be put to good use for missile boosting.

medium torpedoes may not sound scary with the huge ships, but when you can fire 3-5 per second you better be manning those escape pods.

i am trying not to use this too often, i dont want to have to fight it like i am my beamship configurations.

EDIT: i did not know that tech bonuses were randomized, but it all makes sense now! one of my techs for shields gave me something like an 180% increase to shield strength, completely dwarfing all the other ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2011 7:48 am 
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Boomerang
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Genmanator wrote:
Viewpoint 1: "Your weapon now fires 5% faster."

Is exactly the same in effect as:

Viewpoint 2: "Your weapon has a reload speed multiplier of 95% (thus 0.95) to its base rate.

Both result in a 5% increase to the rate of fire, but they are expressed differently. Upgrades to weapon reload speeds do in fact decrease the time between shots, specifically because they reduce this time multiplier value.


I see where you're confused at. You think speed is the same as time, when in fact speed is a function of time. In the context of missile firing:

Speed = Number of Missiles / Time

Which means Speed is expressed as, for example, "20 missiles per second".

Your viewpoints 1 and 2 are are not the same. It WOULD be the same, however, if viewpoint 2 is "your weapon has a reload speed multiplier of 105% OR +5% to its base rate".

Genmanator wrote:
Here's how it applies: If a weapon has a base reload speed of four seconds, and you have an upgrade that makes your reload speed modifier 95%, that means in this example, that you multiply that base speed of four seconds by 0.95, which gives you a new firing rate of one shot every 3.8 seconds, for that particular weapon. You're not adding more time to the base, but you're changing the multiplier's value. By the same token, if your reload speed modifier is 80%, with the same weapon as noted above, the reload speed is multiplied by 0.80, for a result of one shot every 3.0 seconds. One could also say you're increasing the rate of fire by 5% or 20%, respectively, and both would still be correct.


Let us do this calculation properly.

Base Rate = 1 Missile / 4 Seconds

Now, we times this by 0.95. When you multiply a number to a fraction, you multiply it to the numerator not the denominator. Thus you multiply 0.95 to the "1 missile", which is the numerator, not the "4 seconds", which is the denominator. So:

Base Rate x 0.95 = 0.95 Missiles / 4 Seconds

If we want to make it "1 Missile" again, we need to divide "4 Seconds" with "0.95 Missiles", which is:

Base Rate x 0.95 = 1 Missile / 4.211 Seconds

If you do not believe me, put "0.95 / 4" and "1 / 4.211" into a calculator. They are more or less the same. I'm sure you can appreciate that 1 missile every 4.211 seconds is definitely slower than 1 missile every 4 seconds.

Genmanator wrote:
In regards to other values, such as turn speed, acceleration, and of course damage, then of course those percentages will be over 100%, because you are adding a larger multiplier to the base value, and increasing the effect. With reload speeds, the multiplier is applied by reducing the base reload speed multiplier, and base reload speed is a measurement of time. In summation, you're reducing the amount of time between shots, not increasing it.


As I said, you are confusing speed, or rate; with time. Speed/Rate is a function of time. The two are, for the layman, opposites: an increase in time means a decrease in speed/rate. An increase in speed/rate means a decrease in time. Assuming, of course, all other factors constant.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2011 8:09 am 
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Scout
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Okay people, this is getting out of hand.

Things aren't fun when you start bringing a ton of mathematical equations into a game.

Simply put, upgrading missile tech makes your missiles better, faster, stronger. I can vouch for it because at the start, you have your Fire and forget usefulness yet extremely low shield damage and armor damage, but at end game, your smaller missiles just ZIP to your enemies while bigger ones obviously get to about the speed of small missiles early game.

Your missiles also get to the point, if you decide to max them along with subsystems, where they can be fired non stop in succession, rip through shields and armor, and tear down ship hulls in less than a few seconds, especially SRMs.


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 Post subject: Re: Missiles and rockets a bit weak? -5% reload speed?
PostPosted: Mon 16 May, 2011 8:13 am 
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Boomerang
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Apologies for all the off-topic stuff. But still, this is part of the original topic: -5% reload speed is wrong, it should be either +5% reload speed or -5% reload time. And no, reload speed is not the same as reload time: hopefully most people will agree on this point.

A question about Gravity Missiles. Someone told me that Gravity Missiles only work on ships that are the same size or smaller than the Missile's mounting. Is that true? And if it is true, does the same apply to other debuffing weapons, such as Ion and Leech Emitters?


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