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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 12:29 am 
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Gopher
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Well, it's plain torquescript. You just need to do some automatic formatting in order to read it.

Grav emitters should fire just fine, but you need either a civ reactor or a high capacity reactor for it, as the per-shot power consumption is very high (beyond the capacity of a military or overcharged reactor). Maybe I should add a statistic describing per-shot power consumption as well.

Fixed the bug you mentioned, it will be in the next release (hopefully soon).

Also, I have no problems using medium and large ships in my playthrough. It might be a matter of playstyle. Do note that even max-leveled cannons are still weaker against shields than unleveled beams, and max-leveled beams are still weaker against armor than unleveled cannons. So if you're not being efficient with weapon weaknesses, it's very easy to get caught up in unfavorable tradeoffs.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 1:57 am 
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Ranger
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thats what ive been doing. ive nopticed i get like barely any benefits from upgrading besides new weapons lol

oh, and about that pershot, how big is the grav effect? is it worth having a massive reactor?

how do i reformat teh script?

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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Tue 03 Jul, 2012 8:14 am 
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Gopher
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Well there, you should be able to read the code in 0.04b just fine.
I also added per-shot power consumption and damage type multiplier info in the weapon info panel.

The grav lance's grav effect is as powerful as a single hit with a grav missile.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Tue 03 Jul, 2012 1:09 pm 
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Shortbus

Joined: Tue 03 Jul, 2012 1:04 pm
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While I like the idea that the missiles and torpedos don't have any guidance tracking, it makes several of the ships designs all but useless from the start.

While I applaud your efforts to make missiles more skill-based instead of fire-and-forget, could you please active limit tracking, say within a short range or radius from the firing port? I'm tired of having so many near-misses with anything smaller than my ship.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Tue 03 Jul, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Gopher
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Hmm... I could increase the collision size of the missiles, that should help. I really don't want to buff them too much as they do more damage than cannons/beams of their size.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Tue 03 Jul, 2012 11:05 pm 
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Ranger
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new version up?
and, yes, i would think about tracking the same as grav missles. i would ask for the grav lance to have the gravvyess doubled, as the power required to fire it is insane.

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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 08 Jul, 2012 12:51 am 
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Shortbus

Joined: Tue 03 Jul, 2012 1:04 pm
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Whichever works, Stonechimes. I'm just tired of having to shoot them at the side of a barn (or space station) to actually be able to hit them with anything. I'm not very good at shooting games, and my accuracy normally stinks. Its why I prefere turrents. Lol.

Also, when I loaded up the 0.4b version, all of the intel panels for the modules and weapons and stuff for the ships were blank. Like, completely blank. Only the name and the cost and nothing else (descriptions, damage, ect) for everything.

I ended up solving the problem by coping the 0.4b files into a folder with the v0.3 and replacing everything to get it to work right. Might just be missing some dependancies or some such.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 08 Jul, 2012 2:48 am 
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Gopher
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Well, you posted at a great time. Here's v0.05

What's new?
-All deployeable turrets are now mobile. Sorta.
-Mines have been tweaked, hopefully to be more useful (smaller minefields but faster mine deployment, different minefield patterns for each mine, different effects including mass and leech types)
-Focus booster: Improves the range of both cannons and beams (available from the start)
-Mass drivers now have very long range and high-speed bullets, but lose accuracy (larger spread) if you move while firing
-Collision polygons for all missiles (but not rockets or torps) has been drastically increased
-Grav lance now has 50% more gravy
-Cloak-buster scanner's range has been reduced
-Misc fixes

Also, here's a version with only visual changes for people who want a vanilla experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 08 Jul, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Shortbus

Joined: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 8:03 am
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Only issue I have noticed so far is the engines, or physics, which ever you changed..is really bad. The AI cannot hit the AI, whether its my ships trying to hit enemy ships, civs trying to hit uta, what ever. All of the ships end up flying in a big perpetual circle missing all of their shots. And on the rare occasion that the enemy does get hit, his shields are totally refilled by the time he circles around again so you can hit him. I think the vanilla physics were much better. If the AI is targeting you, you end up just rubber banding back and forth, you fly away, turn around, fly towards him shooting [he does some] and you hope you have more hp than he does. If neither of you dies, he turn around and fly into eachother again. Ive tried the military engine and the civ engine.

The very first mission where you fight enemies, I had to quit for a bit because no one was hitting eachother. And if they did hit me, it was a one shot kill since the ships fired 3 missiles at once.

Been fighting a surplus hatchet for like 20 minutes now, I have spawned in 2 star cruisers advanced, a few darts, and a a couple other ships, aswell as there are civilians on the map...no one can hit him. Everyone is just flying in a big circle.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 08 Jul, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Gopher
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Well, the 'circling' issue should only happen with large ships since the AI doesn't seem to deal well with slow turn rates. The solution to that would probably be to increase their turn rate, of course.

I also just tried starting a new game on chapter 1, everything died in seconds except for a hatchet which ran a million miles away when it was on low hp. That might have been your issue and can probably be fixed. I'd usually just skip chapter 1 though.

Edit:0.5a should solve your problems


Last edited by Stonechimes on Sun 08 Jul, 2012 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 08 Jul, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Shortbus

Joined: Tue 03 Jul, 2012 1:04 pm
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As-Saleem isn't the only one who's experienced that 'lets go around in big circles' tactic by both enemies and allied AI ships. While I have experienced the ship that runs away when it gets low on HP, trying to chase down fast ships like the Hatchet and the Scout is totally crazy when all they do is a long circle.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 08 Jul, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Ranger
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will you be fixing the linkpoints for the tiny ships? scout for example, its engine linkpoint is retarded, so i never use it, as im bugged eternally by that stuff :P

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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Gopher
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Sure, why the hell not. Scout's hull design feels useless and generic right now anyway, and I don't know what can be done to make it useful. I'm thinking of making it a tiny mass bomb launcher or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Tue 10 Jul, 2012 5:54 pm 
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Ranger
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Location: Manitoba, Canada
would be really cool! make like one wisp that explodes instantly? :P

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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul, 2012 4:15 am 
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Shortbus

Joined: Thu 12 Jul, 2012 3:57 am
Posts: 2
This looks very fun. I'm definitely going to try this out :)


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2012 4:30 am 
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Shortbus

Joined: Tue 10 Jul, 2012 4:02 pm
Posts: 7
tryed it major annoying bits
two rockets drain my entire energy reserves any rocket based weapons drain power immensly. also they do more damage that anything almost to the point that i might as well just load up entirely with rockets because so long as you have enough energy to fire them a little they wont care how much energy you actually have.
starter dual shooter hull mod is misaligned and shoots in weird directions very hard to hit one tiny/small ship with both beams at the same time the picture is accurate but it seems mostly useless.
i have not found any guided missles so far just dumbfire rockets and bombs.
like the new effects on some of the weapons the disruptor cannon is very nice and feels more like a cannon now.
shear variety is nice and you have really expanded the game with this mod.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 15 Jul, 2012 8:09 am 
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Gopher
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Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, missiles don't care how much energy you have and will fire no matter what. Currently that cannot be changed. The huge energy drain is my attempt to balance them a little. Hmm.. maybe the last update making them easier to land also made them overpowered, and its time for a nerf.

The dual shooter mod's inaccuracy is also a balance attempt (they shoot at an outward angle), so that it won't be so much better than the minimod and the fixed turret mod. Of course, I could reduce the angle a little to make it not as extreme.

Also, very tiny update (no version number change):
-fixed mod component's research unlocking
-some sprites and palette swaps
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 22 Jul, 2012 12:06 am 
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Gyro
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May i ask what each custom resistance applies to?

For example what does Particle resistance do? As
far as i am concerned i have checked all of the weapons
and none of them deal "Particle" damage...i might not
be understanding it correctly, can you clarify the damage
types for me?

EDIT: By this i mean if the weapons were to not be from
this mod, would it have any effect? And which weapons would
it apply to if this was to case. For example, do custom resistances
actually do anything for a mod such as FFU, where no custom weapons
are added?

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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 22 Jul, 2012 12:18 am 
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Gopher
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Hmm, I suspect that what you're talking about comes from the FFU mod. I don't report statistics for different resistances, as I don't tweak resistances for different hull/armor/shields (and I don't see the point of it).

There's currently a set number of damage types ingame without any way to add more. Off the top of my head:

Energy
Projectile
Explosive
Corrosive
Ion
Heat
Corruption
Mass
Pointdef
Armorpierce

I suspect 'particle' refers to Ion damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Sun 22 Jul, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Ranger
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Location: Manitoba, Canada
methinks particle would be cannon, or a custom one.

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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul, 2012 5:21 am 
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Shortbus

Joined: Mon 23 Jul, 2012 4:52 am
Posts: 4
Hi,
Now then I actually reg'd to comment on your mod,

First things I like the art changes, the ''modular modules'' are excellent but they could use some reballancing vs turrets and I approve of your changes to the missiles - they should be called heavy rockets though with them now being manualy aimed and all.

Now the rest..
Why are bounty hunter ships unbuildable? I happen to like them immensly and whether you share that sentiment or not its still utter BS to restrict player choice like that.
Gemini... FFS was your design reasoning for fraking gemini?! (and the rest of 'em ''special'' boats)
Its a heavy corvette (by its size) that has roughly over 1.1k hp and the shield to match..
On a tech 10 system..
They usually spawn in pairs/triads etc..
..
WTF?! in general your enemy spawing gives much stronger ships then they are supposed to have in that sector, for instance I had pairs of hounds spawn in SEC5 right hookS in SEC8 and actually carrier*S* in SEC 18, now I'm all for a challenge and all but going with a T3 ship and two T2's vs multiple T4's supported by T3/2/1's who carry supperior armour, get reinforced by BH's and have tricked out cheat ships in a cross between retarded and masochistic.

Now I could have just made a post quoting a Duke Nukem cuss for wasting a hour or two of my life on this mod of yours but I honestly hope you plan to remedy these ''bugs'' as this could be vast improvement over the vanilla.

PS Don't dare blaming shifting by ''oh but you must have attacked a strong base/gate'' Nope same BS goes on in even backwater, weaken'd T1 stations/portals.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul, 2012 5:44 am 
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Colt
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Joined: Tue 24 May, 2011 5:27 am
Posts: 356
nyxkin wrote:
Hi,
Now then I actually reg'd to comment on your mod,

First things I like the art changes, the ''modular modules'' are excellent but they could use some reballancing vs turrets and I approve of your changes to the missiles - they should be called heavy rockets though with them now being manualy aimed and all.

Now the rest..
Why are bounty hunter ships unbuildable? I happen to like them immensly and whether you share that sentiment or not its still utter BS to restrict player choice like that.
Gemini... FFS was your design reasoning for fraking gemini?! (and the rest of 'em ''special'' boats)
Its a heavy corvette (by its size) that has roughly over 1.1k hp and the shield to match..
On a tech 10 system..
They usually spawn in pairs/triads etc..
..
WTF?! in general your enemy spawing gives much stronger ships then they are supposed to have in that sector, for instance I had pairs of hounds spawn in SEC5 right hookS in SEC8 and actually carrier*S* in SEC 18, now I'm all for a challenge and all but going with a T3 ship and two T2's vs multiple T4's supported by T3/2/1's who carry supperior armour, get reinforced by BH's and have tricked out cheat ships in a cross between retarded and masochistic.

Now I could have just made a post quoting a Duke Nukem cuss for wasting a hour or two of my life on this mod of yours but I honestly hope you plan to remedy these ''bugs'' as this could be vast improvement over the vanilla.

PS Don't dare blaming shifting by ''oh but you must have attacked a strong base/gate'' Nope same BS goes on in even backwater, weaken'd T1 stations/portals.




This folks...is an example of what not to say on your first post....or any post that you consider "feedback" .

There is so much anger in this post after the first several lines, that its hard to take your comments as anything but hate-mongering.

If you have opinions or personal suggestions on how you would like to improve the mod, thats fine. But the age old "Its broken WTF fix nao!" comments just dont work.

Negotiations are hard when you walk into the room and insult everyone and their mother before you even sit down.

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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul, 2012 8:46 am 
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Gopher
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Posts: 97
That's actually really odd. Right now, we (modders) actually get very little control over ship spawning. I've certainly changed nothing to make large ships spawn in systems below level 10, and Gemini and co. are supposed to be extremely rare (literally saw only a single Gemini in an hour of my own playthrough). I'm thinking something else might have broke either in the latest update of the mod files or in your copy of the game.

As for bounty hunter ships, I do want to enable them... but in the original game they were literally the best ships in their class and simply made the other hulls obsolete.
That's pretty bad design. Bad bad bad.

Of course, I could change them but I'm out of ideas for unique roles.


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Shortbus

Joined: Mon 23 Jul, 2012 4:52 am
Posts: 4
Joe Shmo wrote:
This folks...is an example of what not to say on your first post....or any post that you consider "feedback" .
There is so much anger in this post after the first several lines, that its hard to take your comments as anything but hate-mongering.
If you have opinions or personal suggestions on how you would like to improve the mod, thats fine. But the age old "Its broken WTF fix nao!" comments just dont work.
Negotiations are hard when you walk into the room and insult everyone and their mother before you even sit down.

I agree I could have gone with a softer touch but after spending few hours in utter rage due to some imho unbalanced design choice it was rather difficult to be softspoken.
If you do pay attention I never insulted anyone (or their mother for equal measure :lol: ) or even the mod itself but argued (addmitedly also vented ''a tad'') that there exist several issues with the current balance..
Joe Shmo wrote:
If you have opinions or personal suggestions on how you would like to improve the mod, thats fine. But the age old "Its broken WTF fix nao!" comments just dont work.

Now then please understand the difference between being pissed at something in 2AM and being a douche in general,
I still stand by what I wrote though, a gemini class (corvette?) should not have over 1k hp AND shields on aI tech 2 under ANY circumstances.
(besides I feel that my grammer is ''slightly'' superior to ''WTF fix nao!'' so if you're going to call me a troll atleast acknowledge me being (semi)literate. :lol: )
Joe Shmo wrote:
Negotiations are hard when you walk into the room and insult everyone and their mother before you even sit down.


I assure you I was sitting down 8-) and I'm not quite sure why you or your parents may feel insulted over a very specific argument not connected with you by any stretch of the imagination, perhaps you prefer to tag someone by a lable everyone can recognize as hostile (ie troll) and as such ignore any argument such a party has raised - no mater how (un)valid such argument really is. (btw that is almost spot on for racial profiling and as such is the granddaddy for ''hate-mongering'' - quite a bout of hypocrisy for you to accuse me of that)
Stonechimes wrote:
As for bounty hunter ships, I do want to enable them... but in the original game they were literally the best ships in their class and simply made the other hulls obsolete.
That's pretty bad design. Bad bad bad.
Of course, I could change them but I'm out of ideas for unique roles.

Well BH's are kinda broken in vanilla, they have the best armour, the best weapons available and their high cost is ignored by the AI..
They look nice though. :) (and with the modular nature this mod has taken - again nice work - their ''ubberness'' is disputed)
Stonechimes wrote:
That's actually really odd. Right now, we (modders) actually get very little control over ship spawning. I've certainly changed nothing to make large ships spawn in systems below level 10, and Gemini and co. are supposed to be extremely rare (literally saw only a single Gemini in an hour of my own playthrough). I'm thinking something else might have broke either in the latest update of the mod files or in your copy of the game.

I assure you CLEAN store bought install 1.600 with NO additional mods. Now with bigger ships it could have been some beyond and above bad luck (though I highly doubt it run with such a constancy), but again I assure you that gemini's do spawn, do spawn in pairs+, are a pain. (ever had few of em' beam up as a base support in the middle of a t3 station raid.. not pretty, not pretty at all)
Can you kindly look into it? Just in case you missed something? Pretty please? (not trying to insult you or your parents here :lol: just pleading for a point )


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 Post subject: Re: Anachronism Mod (Visual & gameplay mod)
PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Colt
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Joined: Tue 24 May, 2011 5:27 am
Posts: 356
Quote:
I agree I could have gone with a softer touch but after spending few hours in utter rage due to some imho unbalanced design choice it was rather difficult to be softspoken.


Thats really not an excuse for the behavior. If you were upset, you should have cooled down first and made sure your thoughts and feelings were not being conflicted and altered by your state of mind. You dont see lawyers throwing their briefcases around the courtroom because they had a bad cup of coffee just prior, or because one of the other lawyers stuck their tongue out at them.

Candor and respect when going into a discussion is how "civilized" progression happens. There is a difference between being disagreeable with someone, and being hostile, especially if its unreasonably hostile.

Quote:
If you do pay attention I never insulted anyone (or their mother for equal measure :lol: ) or even the mod itself but argued (addmitedly also vented ''a tad'') that there exist several issues with the current balance..


Starting a sentence with "If you do pay attention..." is actually pretty insulting. Its also a sign that you believe the person you are talking to is an "idiot" and/or has no idea about what the discussion is about or entails. It would be more acceptable to state in open towards people who have not been part of the information to say that opening statement, but not to those that have already gone past that point. But even then its still a negative remark.

-"like them immensly and whether you share that sentiment or not its still utter BS to restrict player choice like that."

You attack the creators beliefs and opinions right off the bat in a bold statement that no matter what that person thinks, they are wrong. The entire statement is hypocritically opinionated. You say "...whether you share that sentiment or not..." , and yet you do not hold yourself to the same standards, calling the creator out and insulting his designs because they do not fit neatly into your own opinion of how it should work.

The mod creator could easily say "I happen to like them immensely, and whether you share that sentiment or not its still utter BS to restrict mod creator choice like that."


-"Gemini... FFS was your design reasoning for fraking gemini?! (and the rest of 'em ''special'' boats)"

Again, insulting the mod creators creative choice and design, and i wouldnt say its too far fetched to say you just insulted their intelligence as well, especially with the ' "special" boats ' part.

-".. WTF?!"

This doesnt even need to be there, its not constructive, and its only point is to show that you "popped your cork" .


-"now I'm all for a challenge and all but going with a T3 ship and two T2's vs multiple T4's supported by T3/2/1's who carry supperior armour, get reinforced by BH's and have tricked out cheat ships in a cross between retarded and masochistic."

There is nothing inherently wrong with "masochism" in a game or in a person. In fact, it is a major business practice in MMOs. Its a type of personality, you dont agree with it, but its your opinion and should not be used as an insult. The added use of "retarded" has no positive place in that sentence, so again, insulting the mod creator.


-"Now I could have just made a post quoting a Duke Nukem cuss for wasting a hour or two of my life on this mod of yours but I honestly hope you plan to remedy these ''bugs'' as this could be vast improvement over the vanilla."

"Wasting an hour or two of my life." "I honestly hope you plan to remedy these "bugs" ' "Could be a vast improvement over the vanilla." All negative remarks, and the last one is confusing and contradictory, because you state all these negative things about the mod and its creator and then state that the mod has the potential to be "vastly" improving on the vanilla version. How can it have "vast improvement" potential if you dislike the mod so much to go on a rant?

-"PS Don't dare blaming shifting by ''oh but you must have attacked a strong base/gate'' Nope same BS goes on in even backwater, weaken'd T1 stations/portals."

Again, you start off with a negative remark without even knowing what the person you are talking to have done or not done. Its the same thing as "If you do pay attention" only you preemptively go on the attack because you anticipate the person to respond in a manner you dont agree with. The mod creator hasnt even had a chance to respond to what you said, and you already are starting up a second and defensive argument with them about something they havent even said yet.

But again, the use of "BS" and "backwater" doesnt really show that you are trying to be constructive, only using hurtful or derogatory words to express your anger.


Quote:
Now then please understand the difference between being pissed at something in 2AM and being a douche in general,
I still stand by what I wrote though, a gemini class (corvette?) should not have over 1k hp AND shields on aI tech 2 under ANY circumstances.
(besides I feel that my grammer is ''slightly'' superior to ''WTF fix nao!'' so if you're going to call me a troll atleast acknowledge me being (semi)literate. :lol: )


Its easy for me to understand the difference between "being pissed at something in 2AM" and "being a douche in general" , especially when you responded that you were posting after being upset from playing the mod. Thats understandable, even if its still rude, weve all been at that point where we just got angry at everything for a period of time, especially when tired.

But then you show the same attitude, disrespect, and arrogance about your behavior in your second post. Youve set a pattern/precedence with your 2 highly similar posts. As such its gone away from "2AM" and into "in general" .

Your talk about the gemini is opinionated, and in no way is "under ANY circumstances" a profound truth or proof of concept. Youre just being angry and you dislike that part of the game, and thats within your right, but youre being irrational with going about its feedback.

"(besides I feel that my grammer is ''slightly'' superior to ''WTF fix nao!'' so if you're going to call me a troll atleast acknowledge me being (semi)literate."
"Besides, I feel that my grammar is "slightly" superior to "WTF fix nao!". If you're going to call me a troll, at least acknowledge me being semi literate."

(semi)literate indeed.


Quote:
I assure you I was sitting down 8-) and I'm not quite sure why you or your parents may feel insulted over a very specific argument not connected with you by any stretch of the imagination, perhaps you prefer to tag someone by a lable everyone can recognize as hostile (ie troll) and as such ignore any argument such a party has raised - no mater how (un)valid such argument really is. (btw that is almost spot on for racial profiling and as such is the granddaddy for ''hate-mongering'' - quite a bout of hypocrisy for you to accuse me of that)


What you quoted was called a metaphor. I also never labeled you as anything, I only pointed out what I did in my response. No more, no less.

Your "racial profiling" comparison is absurd.

ra·cial pro·fil·ing
Noun:
The practice of substituting skin color for evidence as grounds for suspicion.


I cant see your skin, I cant see if you indeed come from a long line of troll ancestry, I cant even tell if if you have hair on your head. All I have to make a description or "judgement" about you as a person is what you type in the thread. In your case, its as if a bank robber left a letter stating that they robbed a bank, and left their name and address. You were caught in the act, there wasnt even a "post crime" message left by a different account name fessing up to being the original person.

I can no more "racially profile" you if you dont say anything than i could "racially profile" the spaz forums as being a haven for pedophiles, just because its on the internet. Until someone actually posted said material.



So again, you're free to have your own opinion, just like everyone in the world. Just be respectful of others opinions, and if you want to give feed back, please do it when you arnt angry. And try to be mindful of being too arrogant, it doesnt work out for any of us.

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